Joy,

With moral and emotional arguments at its core I'm not sure veganism can be defined so rigidly. Certainly there are fundamentalists but that can be said of many groups that have an agenda. I think we can find a balanced relationship with non-humans but for now the scales are tipped against them and egregious speciesism is rampant. The cases you mention are exceptions to the normal treatment of animals but what I'm more interested in is the speciesist mindset that allows us to mistreat, abuse and exploit them. I'm advocating for integrity in our arguments and healthy dialogue that would allow comments like yours to flourish without vitriolic repercussions.

I think there's room for non-human to human relationships but how we do that while respecting their existence is the trick. Thanks for your reply.

I guess my point is that I WANT a life where we live with animals and where we have a symbiosis that allows us to benefit from the beautiful things that animals have to offer, and where we can give back in return. I know that many people will disagree, and that's fine; I'm just adding to the conversation.

Hey I think maybe to better clarify the mission perhaps we should move away from the "vegan" label. What do you think and do you have any suggestions?

Thanks for such a concise, thought provoking thread!

Hey I think maybe to better clarify the mission perhaps we should move away from the "vegan" label. What do you think and do you have any suggestions?

Dave, I think the "vegan" label is appropriate since so many in this group are vegan in diet choices, vegan in clothing choices, in their advocacy for compassion and ethical treatment of animals, and any other way they can be vegan. There is a very big need in the world for groups like this one, at least in my opinion.

I do not much want to criticise anyone choosing to eat animals, nor who wear animal source clothing items; but I like to point out to them reasons for choosing other options when those options exist and when those options are better choices.

I tend to agree with you that the ethical reasons for veganism are very good, and I include humans as also benefitting, and not only animals. But, whether everyone, everywhere will always be better off as vegan is an open question, not easy for me to answer. At this moment in time, in Haiti, probably no one cares about the ethical treatment of any animal , especially if it can be eaten.

I once had a college instruction who taught American literature who said "There is only one absolute and that is there are no absolutes".